In this episode, we talk to Jim Goldman, CEO and co-founder of Trava.  Trava is on a mission to simplify cybersecurity for small and midsized businesses. Jim talks about his journey from academia to FBI to tech founder, how cybersecurity has evolved during his career, and our collective role in preventing cyber threats.

Jordan Isaacs

Jim, thanks so much for hosting us here today at tra. Welcome to the Circuit.

Jim Goldman

Well, it’s, thank you. It’s great to be here. Thank you for coming. Welcome to Trava.

Jordan Isaacs

Thank you. So first off, can you tell us a little bit more about what Trava is at a high level, who do you serve? What do you do?

Jim Goldman

Sure. So let’s start with who do we serve? Because I think that’s one of the unique things about Trava you know, at the highest level, we’re in the cybersecurity space. Let’s start there. Right? So, what’s unique about us, what’s unique about us is we serve mid-market and small and medium-size businesses. Of the thousands and thousands of cybersecurity companies out there, they’re all dreaming someday of selling to the enterprise. Salesforce, Microsoft, Google, something like that, right? Not us. Our reason for being is to make mid-market small and medium-size businesses more secure. So, how do we do that? Recognizing that that audience is unique and that they don’t have full-time security people. They don’t have a Chief Security Information Officer. They need an easy to understand and easy to use tool, but they also need people and expertise. And the two have to go together. And that’s the secret sauce of Trava.

The Cybersecurity Landscape of 2020.

Jordan Isaacs

So it’s mid 2020. There are so many cybersecurity products out there. What did you see in the market at that time? And you said, hey, now’s the time.

Jim Goldman

So it, it really was a combination of things and it, it comes back from a couple of experiences that I had and some things going on in the market. So part of my background was I was with the FBI, I was a task force officer with the FBI Cybercrime Task Force. And when I was there, what I found in the investigations that I did, that when an enterprise scale company had an issue, you know, they might take a hit on their brand for a while, they’d hire a PR firm, their stock price may go down for a while. Inevitably they were fine. It was quite the opposite with mid-market and smaller medium-size businesses, there, not only did the business often suffer devastated financial results, but also the principal or the co-owner or, you know, the co-founder suffered personally as well. And that always bothered me.

Jim Goldman

And so what we wanted to do was we wanted to find a way to, to bring a solution to that market. And the other thing that happened, yeah. The other thing that happened was at the same time we had the cyber insurance industry really bursting onto the scene. Ransomware was getting started and yet there was this total disconnect between cyber risk management on the one hand. Yeah. Which is a relatively new industry. Right. And cyber insurance being done the same way that every other line of insurance had been done for 200 years. So what we said was, well, wait a minute. Those two are inextricably linked, but no one seems to be linking them together. So what if we did cyber risk management more effectively, especially for mid-market and in small and medium sized businesses. And in so doing, we have the data we can prove that they actually are secure. They actually have properly mitigated their risk and therefore they are a good risk for cyber insurance because they were not able to get cyber insurance previously.

Jordan Isaacs

So you saw a convergence.

Jim Goldman

We saw the convergence and what we knew was the thing that tied those two very disparate industries together was data. So at the heart of it Trava is a data company. And the data that we have, that is our currency, that’s how we talk about it, is cyber risk data.

Jordan Isaacs

So in the past year, you’ve seen huge momentum. You’ve raised three and a half, three and a half million dollars. You’ve been honored as a great place to work through, I believe the great employers list. And you’re also a member of the Forbes Technology Council. , what do you attribute all the success to?

Jim Goldman

You know, High Alpha, when they start a company, they give you seven kind of key metrics to get traction. And one of the early ones that I never quite understood and I found difficult to measure, they called it virality. Like going viral, when do you start going viral? When do people let you know they’ve heard about you as opposed to you knocking on someone’s door. And so I think what’s happened is, for a variety of reasons, some of which, you know, you’ve already mentioned, we’ve started to go viral. And it’s almost like you can see the difference. You can point to the point on the curve where we started to go viral.

Jordan Isaacs

That’s awesome. That’s awesome. That’s a fun ride to be on as well. Yeah. For a two year period.

Jim Goldman

Yeah, exactly.

Professor. FBI Officer. Tech Founder.

Jordan Isaacs

I wanna talk a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey. So, because you didn’t start out in tech.

Jim Goldman

Well, actually I did.

Jordan Isaacs

Well then let’s take another shot at that question. Because I had you originally start out academia.

Jim Goldman

So director of MIS for a couple of companies, management information systems. They didn’t call them CIOs back then for a couple of companies on the east coast. Those companies happened to be widely distributed. Now, this was before the days of the internet, before the days of TCP/IP. Like things called, mini computers. So not mainframes, but mini computers, deck VAEs, et cetera, were the rage. And so the, there was a necessity, but very few people. So it was against the law still to hook a modem to the phone network, believe it or not. And so very few people knew how to get a computer… computers to talk to each other over long distances. So I, that was the beginning of network engineering. And so I was one of the people that figured that out. That’s when, that’s why I took the job at Purdue. They had a faculty opening for, to teach one course and what at the time they called data communications and that, you know, so that’s the faculty position I applied for. I got, and then we ended up building the network engineering degree program out of that. Right. That’s what brought me to Purdue. But I didn’t start there, I’m not an academic. I… uh… I hated it there <laughs>.

Jordan Isaacs

So you started your career in tech on the east coast? Building a new system in a new type of technology…

Jim Goldman

…Networking computers together. Right.

Jordan Isaacs

And then Purdue saw you and said, hey, we have to have this guy because we’re trying to do something similar.

Jim Goldman

Right. And so then I built there. Now it was a brand new field, like there were no college textbooks. So this is my style. It’s like I do things that haven’t been done before and I don’t take no for an answer. Right. There were no college textbooks. So I wrote eight college textbooks in what at the time was called applied data communications.

Jordan Isaacs

So from Purdue ended up staying in Indiana . And what happens next?

Jim Goldman

Well, um, so I started the cyber forensics program there and then I started doing some research in reverse engineering malware. And the FBI was trying to build their capability in that particular discipline. At the same time they heard about the research I was doing and they paid me a visit and asked me if I would get a top secret security clearance, which I did. And so then I went to work for the FBI for five years as a task force officer in the FBI cyber crime task force. And I served as a lead cyber investigator on both criminal and national security cyber squads for the fbi.

Jordan Isaacs

Wow. That must have been just an awesome experience.

Jim Goldman

You have no idea <laugh>

Jordan Isaacs

Generally when somebody’s on the FBI’s radar, it’s not a good thing. <laugh>. But you were on their radar for a good reason. Cause they needed your expertise.

Jim Goldman

Yeah. That’s why I always kind of half smirk what I say and then the FBI came to see me. Cause generally you’re not happy when the FBI comes to see you <laugh>.

Jordan Isaacs

Tell me what, what you can share just about that role and working with them and some, some high points.

Jim Goldman

It was super fulfilling. It really was. I mean, it gives you a glimpse inside a federal agency that few people ever get to see. And I was just so impressed with how bright and how dedicated the people are. You know what I mean? And it’s not like they make a lot of money. They, they do it because they’re just so dedicated to what they’re doing. It really was a wonderful, wonderful experience. You know, I wasn’t an agent. I didn’t go through, you know, Quantico the training, but they treated me as if I was part of the team. You know, the fun part was I went through firearms training and all the other kind of stuff and, and I mean the nice thing was like if I was the lead investigator on a case right? And then, you know, it turns out, you know what, we were able to identify who was involved with, et cetera, et cetera. And we put together an operation. Then I went on the operation because I was the lead investigator. I was part of the interview process to say, yeah, this, this is really what we thought we’d find. And we found it. And yeah. You did it because I know you did it.

Jordan Isaacs

They leaned on you from start to finish.

Jim Goldman

Exactly.

Jordan Isaacs

Yeah. Yeah. They plucked you out of the Purdue and really leaned on you as they. Built those civil and criminal cases it sounds like.

Jim Goldman

Yeah. Well, national security.

Jordan Isaacs

National security cases,.

Jim Goldman

People breaking into government agencies. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Jordan Isaacs

What exciting work.

Jim Goldman

Yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. Very fulfilling.

ExactTarget’s First Vice-President of Information Security.

Jordan Isaacs

Tech early in your career, coming to the Midwest, being at Purdue into the FBI and then there’s another chapter right? That runs into ExactTarget.

Jim Goldman

Yeah. I mean, the thread’s unbelievable. So here’s the kind of the other thread through the whole thing. So I, I’ve had enough of higher Ed Purdue and I wanna get back to industry. I, you know, ExactTarget. You’re hearing the headlines about ExactTarget up and coming, et cetera, et cetera. And they’ve got an opening for their, you know, they’re growing. They want to move international in terms of sales and up into sell to the enterprise. And so they post an opening for their first vice president of information security. So I come to the interview and lo and behold, I’m interviewing with a former student, <laugh>.

Jordan Isaacs

How cool is that?

Jim Goldman

Yeah, that’s what I mean. So the whole thing just ties together. And, and so I get hired and so I’m now working for a former student. Yeah, yeah. And who I worked for, for years at Salesforce and actually he’s now with Zylo. So we’re still working together.

Jim Goldman

But yeah, you know, I became the first vice president of information security for ExactTarget. You know, did what we needed to do to build a sophisticated, get an international certification in security because they wanted to sell internationally. That was 2011. In 2013 we were acquired by Salesforce.

Jordan Isaacs

When did you join?

Jim Goldman

When did I join? August of 2011.

Jordan Isaacs

Yeah. So you were riding that wave to 2013, right?

Jim Goldman

Yes. Yep.

Jordan Isaacs

ExactTarget, Salesforce in the beginning you ended up coming back because there was such a critical need for what you do. Right. And you had to fill that for Salesforce, because it was necessary as they made this acquisition, but it continued to scale a business. Right. So talk to me about, a little bit about some of the stuff you continued to do for them when you came back and as you were there. Well,

Jim Goldman

You know, Salesforce grows and continues to grow largely by acquisition. Yeah. And, and so, you know, they, they’ve got these general clouds, right? So I was in the marketing cloud, the ExactTarget was the foundation of the Marketing cloud, but they continued to buy other acquisitions and just say, you’re not part of the marketing cloud. So every time they did that, we had to look at that organization and say, okay, what’s their infrastructure? You know, what’s their security posture? What’s their compliance maturity, et cetera. And take them from wherever, wherever they are to where they needed to be.

Jordan Isaacs

You played a key part in that.

Jim Goldman

Exactly. Yeah.

Jordan Isaacs

Yeah. What year did you end up leaving Salesforce?

Jim Goldman

December of 2019.

High Alpha and the Origins of Trava.

Jordan Isaacs

December of 2019. Right. So, a little more than a year later, you got the entrepreneurial bug to start an organization?

Jim Goldman

Well, it’s less than that. It was a matter of months. So actually in February of 2020. Okay. I got a call from Scott Dorsey, who I always stayed in touch with, and they were doing a sprint week. You’re, I’m sure you’re very familiar with the High Alpha Sprint weeks. And so, um, a fellow named Matt Bressler from TDF Ventures in Chevy Chase, Maryland had come with basically two years of research on this convergence of cyber risk management and cyber insurance that they’d been looking into, but hadn’t been able to coalesce it into a company or find co-founders, et cetera. . And so Matt kind of got the okay. From his organization to come in, run it through the High Alpha Sprint week. So Matt Bressler and Scott Dorsey teamed up in sprint week with this concept. And the way, hi, the way the sprint week works is on Thursday of the sprint week, you’re supposed to have enough of a concept that you can pitch it to an outside industry expert and say, what do you think?

Jim Goldman

Is there something here or not? So Scott gives me a call, says, hey, do, do you have an hour on Thursday? I’d like to introduce you to Matt Bressler and run this idea by you. So I said, sure. I actually happen to be downtown. So I came in, we met at their building, they were still in the circle. And they start pitching, you know, the idea. And, you know, being the former college professor, I’m immediately at the whiteboard drawing Venn diagrams and data flow diagrams. And then I’ll never forget it, I had the dry erase marker in my hand and I turned, I pointed it at Scott Dorsey. I said, Scott, I wanna run this company for you.

Jordan Isaacs

And the rest is history.

Jim Goldman

Well, Scott’s a smart man. It’s not like you said, sure, Jim, the company’s yours. There were many steps, but yeah, eventually, yes.

Jordan Isaacs

You, in that moment when you had the dry erase board, was it a culmination of that work you’d done at the FBI at other places?

Jim Goldman

Exactly. Right.

Jordan Isaacs

Problem has to be solved.

Jim Goldman

Exactly. Right. And I knew they were, I knew that, you know, I’d sort of have the same idea. Right. And I knew this was… it was like the right time, the right idea, the right place. It was like, no, this is perfect. This is what I need to do next.

Jordan Isaacs

It’s that convergence. Plus your really the focus and a big part of what Trava’s focused on is small businesses.

Jim Goldman

Bingo. Yeah.

Cybersecurity for Small Businesses.

Jordan Isaacs

What’s a bit of the difference, so just, you talked a little bit about with your FBI background, but working with large enterprises compared to those small businesses. So like what’s, what are some of the largest differences you see when they’re impacted by cyber attack?

Jim Goldman

So the, the first thing is they don’t have the expertise in house. I mean, that’s the most glaring difference, right? And, and so, you know, cyber risk management, it starts with prevention, right? And then, and then it’s detection, and then it’s response, and then it’s recovery, et cetera. Well, most small and medium sized businesses don’t even get to the prevention step. Right? And, and so they’re just plain ill prepared. And, you know, sometimes they have their head buried in the sand. It’s like they don’t want to know. Sometimes they’re forced to know. Sometimes they find out the hard way. You know, it, it’s different in every circumstance, you know, where, where we work best is with companies that are aware they need to do something, but they don’t know what that first step is. That, that’s like all we need as an entry point. All we need is a prerequisite is you’ve recognized the fact that you have a problem.

Jordan Isaacs

That has to be a really gratifying journey. Cause you’re helping folks that are small and medium size business owners solve a critical problem. It’s only getting larger.

Jim Goldman

Well, neither big satisfaction comes when, you know, our customers get compliments and kudos from their customers. So we’ve had customers that we’ve helped on their security journey that have since been acquired Right. By much bigger companies. Those bigger companies come in and say, wow, we’re really impressed with the sophistication of your security and compliance program given how young or relatively small you are. Like that, you know, we take a lot of pride in those kind of, even though we lose ’em as a customer, <laugh>, we take a lot of pride in that.

Jordan Isaacs

But Trava is a key piece on that journey.

Jim Goldman

That’s the point. Yeah.

Jordan Isaacs

That’s the point to helping companies grow and be mature before they’re even expected to be mature.

Jim Goldman

Right, right. Well, and it’s, that’s a differentiator for them. They stand out from their competition. And actually, you know, it helps their sales cycle as well, you know, because they start the conversation, normal kind of vendor risk management will tell us about your security program and then their potential customers are going really? Really? Really, you have that in place. Really? Wow.

Jordan Isaacs

Smooths it right along.

Jim Goldman

Yeah, exactly.

Jordan Isaacs

You have been in this industry for, several years starting in tech, going to academia, working with students that eventually became, uh, both, um, folks you’re working with and industry and culture hiring. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Jim Goldman

Yes. I have a former student is a senior vice president of ours.

Jordan Isaacs

Really?

Jim Goldman

Cindy Goyer, former student. Senior vice president.

“It’s not cybercrime, it’s cyberwarfare.”

Jordan Isaacs

That’s awesome. What are some of the big issues in the horizon that both business owners should be aware of? Small and large, um, but also individuals just around cybersecurity and risk.

Jim Goldman

So a certain phrase comes to mind, and I’ve delivered a keynote where actually more than one keynote address on it. And it’s this, and I don’t mean to sound alarmist because I’m being a hundred percent truthful when I say this. It’s not cybercrime, it’s cyberwarfare. We, we as the United States, as the United States economy are literally being attacked. The problem is not enough. People realize it, don’t want to realize it. They wanna look at it as random, isolated, a little crime here, a little crime here. It’ll never affect me, et cetera, et cetera, from my work of the FBI. And since I can tell you it’s not random acts of criminal activity, it is cyber warfare.

Jordan Isaacs

So it’s the aggregation of those points that, um, are starting to add up in different ways.

Jim Goldman

Well, and it’s almost like we haven’t seen the big event yet. It’s like we’ve seen this little thing over here, this little thing over here, but it’s like, have we seen isolated events where hospitals and healthcare systems have been shut down by ransomware? Yes. Have we seen fuel distribution systems been shut down? Yes. Have we seen public utility grids, electrical grids shut down. Yes. Have we seen water works and sewage treatment plants been shut down? Yes. Have we seen airport systems been attacked? Yes. Each of those things are like, you know, random events over the last several years. What if every one of those things I just said happen simultaneously?

Jordan Isaacs

Yeah. Not a good scenario.

Jim Goldman

Yeah. Not a good scenario. Are we ready for that? I’m not so sure. Because we as a society have not collectively owned the truth of the situation. Right. And, you know, this sector says, well, that’s the government’s responsibility. This sector says, well, that’s business’s responsibility. Everybody’s expecting somebody else to fix the problem. And the fact is, we collectively as Americans all own this problem. Every single one of us. It’s like, it sounds silly, it sounds like a joke, but the fact that your refrigerator is connected to the internet and that your ring doorbell is connected to the internet, you’re part of the solution, part of the problem.

Jordan Isaacs

I have both of those things. And you…

Jim Goldman

That’s my point. Exactly.

Jordan Isaacs

Just got a nice dryer that connects the internet as well.

Jim Goldman

Exactly. Exactly.

Indiana’s Business Environment.

Jordan Isaacs

One question I do wanna ask you, you grew up on the east coast, went to school out there, obviously you’re a Midwesterner, you’re here, um, been all over the world in, uh, the work you’ve done, but you made a decision to, to grow your company in Indy in Indiana. Why’d you do that?

Jim Goldman

When people ask me, okay, describe the Indiana business environment or especially the tech environment. I often use the phrase one degree of separation. You know, you hear the joke about Kevin Bacon in six degrees of separation, in Indy, especially in Indiana tech community, it’s one degree of separation, which means if, if you don’t know somebody, you absolutely know somebody who knows that person. And in some ways, that’s exactly the right size. Now, the other thing is, we are a high integrity people. That’s the Midwest thing because of that one degree of separation. You can’t afford to have a bad reputation <laugh>, but do you know what I mean? It’s like, it is so, it is so easy to do business here. It’s so collaborative. And it, it’s almost like, we collectively know that, you know, we’re always in a fight with either coast , do you know what I mean? And, and so it’s like we’re not really competitors or if we are, we’re still trying to help each other. You know what I mean? There’s just this sort of attitude that’s a little bit hard to describe that’s marvelous out here. And it’s not just Indianapolis. I mean, one of the, you know, M25 outta Chicago is one of our investors. Victor Gutwein, the managing director there, who’s just terrific and they concentrate only on the Midwest.

Jordan Isaacs

There’s a lot of special things going on here. Yeah, exactly. It’s like you’re tapping into that.

Jim Goldman

Right. Right.

Jordan Isaacs

And with your background as well, just in education, I mean, you’ve seen the top light schools that exist in the Midwest exist in Indiana. And the ability to hire some of those folks.

Jim Goldman

Well, well that’s a big difference. So I started at Purdue in 1991, and the thing we talked about then was the Indiana brain drain, because especially at Purdue, we were educating these great Indiana kids and they were going to, some went to Chicago, but most of them went to either the coasts to get their employment. They were leave, you know, they were leaving the state because there was no tech opportunity for ’em. I think we’ve really turned that around.

Jordan Isaacs

I agree with you over the last 15 years or so. Right. Indy and Indiana. It’s a different place.

Jim Goldman

Exactly. In a good way. Yeah. Absolutely.

A Culture of Laughing.

Jordan Isaacs

I did, as I was preparing for this interview, one of the things, uh, that I looked at that’s really a key of your culture is laughing. And I love that. Tell me more about why.

Jim Goldman

It’s kind of funny when, when we hired our, when Rob Beeler and myself hired our first employee and they were about to be onboarded, even though it was like, you know, we, we were about to become a three person company. We said, okay, we need to think about onboarding. And people might have laughed at that, right? But I said, no, we really need to think about this and we need a deck, like an onboarding deck. And we really need to think about our values. And, and it’s actually one of the things that Rob and I bonded about. And so Rob’s got 30 years with software engineering experience, small companies, large companies, good companies, bad companies, a lot like me. And so the good thing about having two old guys running the company is they know what’s really important at this point, and they really don’t care what anybody thinks.

Jim Goldman

Okay. And so we wanted a set of values that really reflected what we had learned in some cases the hard way over the past 30 years and what did we want this company to be? And so, um, yeah, we came up with these values and you know, we, I it’s just my personality. It’s like life is too short. You know, not to have a good laugh every now and then. And, yeah. So, so we decided one of our value is we believe that laughter makes us more productive. And you know, every team, in the company is welcome to implement that value however they wish. So our service delivery team, we have a service delivery standup, 15 minutes, standup three times a week to talk about what’s going on with all our customers. Starts with a joke. <laugh>. Every standup starts with a joke but it’s gotta be like a cyber nerdy joke.

Jordan Isaacs

<laugh>, I’m gonna put you on the spot. Give us your best joke.

Jim Goldman

Oh boy. Why did the cyber criminal… Why did the cyber criminal not get away with his cyber crime?

Jordan Isaacs

I have no idea.

Jim Goldman

Because it ransomeware.

Jordan Isaacs

<laugh>, I’m coming to your stand ups ’cause I love jokes.

Jim Goldman

And I think I got that wrong cause it was funnier the first time, all I remember is the punchline.

How Cybersecurity Has Evolved.

Jordan Isaacs

I like it Jim. I like it. In preparation of this, we read that when you first started at Purdue in 1991, you proposed teaching an independent study around network security and you were laughed at for it and called paranoid. Right. Tell me more about that.

Jim Goldman

Well, it, you know, I just, I have this uncanny knack to I, I’ve been told I connect dots that others don’t see, right? And so I thought, no, this is a thing, this is important. And yeah, you know, it’s not the first time I’ve called paranoid, but you know, it’s kinda like my contention about this is not cyber crime, this is cyber warfare. Someone would say, oh, that’s just Goldman being paranoid again. I’m not so sure. Like they said that when I first started talking about network security, a $600 billion a year industry now.

Jordan Isaacs

You’re ahead of your time

Jim Goldman

Prepared for apparently. Yeah.

Jordan Isaacs

Yeah. Anything else you to leave us with about Trava. About trends we should be aware of? Anything you wanna help get across?

Jim Goldman

Like I was saying, I hesitate this cause in case my investors hear it, but you know, we hope we make money because we’re supposed to, but that’s not our primary mission is to do whatever we need to do, provide free education, free seminars, whatever to help small, medium sized business owners, mid-market business owners, reduce their cyber risk and, you know, um, protect their companies from cyber crime. We’ll do whatever we can. We’ll talk to anybody anytime about that. If we make some money along the way, great. But our mission is really that.

Jordan Isaacs

You have a true passion for just awareness, helping folks solve those critical problems.

Jim Goldman

Remember this, two out of every three new jobs in the United States come from small and medium size businesses. So people say, well, small and medium size business, how big a deal is that? It’s 66% of the United States economy folks.

Starting a Business.

Jordan Isaacs

How do we get more folks that have worked in large companies like you in leadership levels where you see all these trends, you see all these things that could be a business. How do we continue to get them to take the next step to act on that and to start that business?

Jim Goldman

Boy, it’s scary. It’s, you know, well let me say a couple of things. It’s A) it’s not for everybody, right? Everybody’s not made to start a business. So there, there’s that, but B) you know, you have to be at a certain point in your life and a certain point in your career, you know, Rob and I are where we are now able to do this and start this company because of the careers that we’ve had, right? You have to be at a certain point in your career, literally in order to be able to afford to do something like this. So it’s not for your average young person, you know, with a young family, that kind of thing. But the sad part is, and I don’t have the statistics off from the top of my head, but I’m sure you could find them out. Most older Americans are being pushed out of companies. You know, they’re not valued. And yet at the same time, there isn’t, you know, a program ready and available and awareness to say, oh no, you know, we definitely need you right here, right now, you know, to, to start this company. To, yeah, we’ve got an entrepreneur here, but they’re, you know, in their thirties and we really need you, you know, in your early sixties to kind of come alongside and mentor them because you’ve been through this, you know, throughout your career. I think it’s an incredible wasted resource in the United States to have people that have gone through these incredible careers. They get pushed out the door and then nothing.

Jordan Isaacs

Sounds like we have some work to do in that spot though.

Jim Goldman

Don’t you think?

Jordan Isaacs

I absolutely think so. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Goldman

I mean, you know, Rob and I were lucky High Alpha decided to take a chance on a couple of old guys, but, you know, not everybody’s so lucky.

Jordan Isaacs

Jim, I enjoyed this. Is there anything else you want to add or anything else that I, that I should have asked here? Here?

Jim Goldman

So I gave a talk at the PowderKeg event a a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. And it was totally extemporaneous and I talked about what travel was and how we’re different. It was a little bit about where I started that for the target audience that we’re going after, you have to have the product, but you have to have the people cause they don’t have the people. Yeah. And what I said was, our product is great, but our people are spectacular. And that’s really the essence of what Trava is all about. That’s why we’ve had the success we’ve had.

Jordan Isaacs

Makes all the difference.

Jim Goldman

It makes all the difference.

Jordan Isaacs

Jim, thanks for letting us interview today. Thanks for being on the Circuit and good luck. We wish you the best.

Jim Goldman

The best. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time and thank you.

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